Episode 80: Doping Allegations and Nutrition Insights!

In this episode of Another Triathlon Podcast, hosts Jenna-Caer, Josh, and Fede dive into one of the most controversial topics in the sport right now: doping allegations. The triathlon world has been buzzing with the shocking news surrounding Imogen Simmonds, and the team breaks down the details, the reaction from the community, and what this means for the sport moving forward. They also discuss the importance of clean sport, the impact of doping scandals, and how trust in the competition is essential for both athletes and fans.

But it’s not all controversy! The conversation also shifts to the importance of health, nutrition, and performance longevity. With recent updates from Sam Laidlow, Lucy Charles, and Lionel Sanders, the team explores how underlying health issues can affect even the best athletes in the world. From fueling strategies to metabolic efficiency, they cover the balance between training and recovery, why over-reliance on sugar can be problematic, and how athletes can optimize their nutrition for peak performance.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Training Updates
09:49 Race Preparation and Nutrition Strategies
19:52 Understanding Training Fatigue and Hormonal Effects
29:51 Recent Race Highlights and Performances
34:18 Assessing Athletic Performance Post-Injury
35:50 Doping Allegations in Triathlon
37:13 The Impact of Doping on Reputation
40:35 Testing and Regulations in Sports
43:39 Media and Doping Allegations
45:05 Social Media Trends in Triathlon
46:51 Health Issues Among Triathletes
49:43 Nutrition and Health in Triathlon
51:20 Training and Recovery Strategies
57:32 Training Timing: Early vs Late
01:05:46 The Popularity of Roth vs Kona

Episode Highlights:

• The doping allegations against Imogen Simmonds: what we know so far
• How doping scandals affect the sport and its credibility
• The balance between trusting athletes and ensuring clean competition
• Sam Laidlow’s health struggles and how they may affect his season
• Lucy Charles’ journey with celiac disease and the impact on her training
• Lionel Sanders’ revelations about his pre-diabetic condition and fueling mistakes
• The importance of metabolic efficiency in endurance sports
• Training late at night vs. early mornings: what’s best for recovery and performance?
• Challenge Roth vs. Kona: Which race holds the bigger appeal?

With plenty of expert insights, personal experiences, and hot takes, this episode is packed with valuable discussion on what it takes to stay healthy, train smart, and compete at the highest level.

🎧 Tune in now to hear the latest on triathlon’s biggest controversies and top performance strategies!

Transcript

Jenna-Caer (00:01.036)
Welcome back to another Trathon podcast brought to you by Mana Apparel. As always, we're going to have some fun breaking down everything that's going on in Trathon with a bit of a shocking development we'll say over the last little while that has set off a flurry of memes. It has been, well, we'll say interesting. I'm sure we'll have lots to talk about when it comes to the recent doping allegations. And we'll definitely dive into that further. But first, we're going to catch up with the crew, see how Brun's doing with the training.

I'm joined by Josh and Fede and let's jump in with Fede. How's the training going these days?

Fed (00:34.028)
Yeah, hey guys, training's going good. Not being swimming a lot, that's, you know, I said it last time. Yeah, that's why it's good. I don't smell like chlorine all the time, which is fun. No, but bike training's going good. Doing a bit of an endurance block right now. You know, getting those base miles in and I enjoy this type of work because I...

Josh (00:41.814)
So that's why it's good.

Jenna-Caer (00:43.156)
Hahaha

Fed (01:03.512)
To me, it's the foundation for everything. So the better my baseline is, the more I can sprinkle in intensity when it really matters. taking it one day at a time, gradually building up. So yeah, it's going good, enjoying training, been doing a lot of runs by feel. Like I do have my heart rate strapped, but I purposefully don't look at my watch heart rate just.

you know, running with a perceived exertion to see if what I feel matches the data. So it's, been a cool, you know, a couple of weeks doing that. And now that intensity is low, I can really do that because I know I, I'm not overdoing and not, you know, I'm one of those guys who really enjoys running slow. So I really don't care. you know, I think my heart rate is right where it needs to be right now.

Jenna-Caer (02:00.596)
That's excellent. Yeah, setting that foundation the further you dig down the higher up you can go with that intensity and everything afterwards. And are you seeing a drop in your pace in relation to that heart rate the more you're doing kind of that zone to training?

Fed (02:12.686)
not really because you know, altitude, but what I would say is that, for my longer runs, I can see that the heart rate stays lower for longer. So that's a good indicator for me. I, it's not necessarily that, my bits per minute drop a lot because like I said, I'll digit, but, where I could w when I, when I did my long runs before, and let's say it was like a 90 minute long run.

Jenna-Caer (02:17.854)
There.

Fed (02:41.972)
I could see my heart rate drift a couple of bits higher and now it's staying flatter for the majority of the long run, which is a good indicator of adaptation.

Josh (02:45.309)
Yes.

Jenna-Caer (02:54.73)
Yeah, definitely. Well, what's up next on your calendar, actually?

Fed (02:59.502)
Um, so right now it's a bit tricky. mean, I'm signed up for 70.3 Hawaii and I was considering doing 70.3 St. George, but when I decided I really wanted to do it, jumped on the website and it was sold out. So yeah, so no 70.3 St. George for me. So it looks like my start of the season would be 70.3 Hawaii, uh, at the end of May. So yeah.

Jenna-Caer (03:14.902)
like instantly this year.

Jenna-Caer (03:27.852)
That'll be awesome. Yeah, that race looks like a lot of fun.

Fed (03:29.006)
Yeah, yeah, I love that race. was my first ever 70.3, so I try to go back as many times as possible.

Jenna-Caer (03:37.558)
How about you Josh, what's going on in your world?

Josh (03:41.485)
20 hour weeks are hard. It's been pretty fun. pretty interesting. I also apologize to anyone who is a new listener and thinks we're going to have Mark Matthews on every week. don't. but it was a great episode last week. So thanks for joining. Listen, we'll have some more interviews, definitely going forward the rest of the year, but yeah, it's, I was, I did miss a couple of workouts early in the week last, last week. So I was.

Fed (03:43.657)
Hahaha!

Jenna-Caer (03:44.061)
You're living the pro life.

Josh (04:10.401)
On tap for a 23 hour week ended up just about 20 hours. And I look back, I think I did 80 in the month of February, which on a, on a short, so pretty much 20 hours a week. And that's been the case ever since Puerto Rico had one down week at 14, 15, which is still crazy. That's still above what I was doing last year. And it's been really, really fun this Sunday. felt a little tired. but I was done my.

workout early enough that I recovered by doing, uh, by the time I had to do a big workout yesterday. So I've been doing like two days a week. I've been actual full tries like swim, bike, run workouts. Um, so that's been on the, the, on tap and the body's been handling it just because the, easy workouts have been easy. And I think last night for me, I've been spending most of my rides aerobically around 170 Watts. And last night.

knowing with the volume up even more, I spun for an hour and a half at 150 watts and just took it easy. And I had a harder run pace-wise off of that and really focused on the effort being ready for that one. And it came up and was able to hit six miles at a pretty good pace for me with the heart rate not drifting so much and just staying steady. So certainly noticed that. Getting the long runs up there.

because I've got Boston two weeks after Oceanside. it's now up to this week and I'm looking ahead and I'm up to 14 miles. I actually might get to that 18, 20 mile long run, even though I'm still training for 70.3 Oceanside. So I'm really looking forward to it because I think like when we pull the rug out on a taper, my body's going to be pretty damn ready to race. And I'm really looking forward to that. it's been a lot of fun and

And I'm enjoying the working out and that's the most important part and getting a workout done. want to scream and yell and that that adrenaline is there, the energy is there. And that's a good sign to me that I'm not over training and the body's recovering. So heart rates reacting the way it should. And that's important. Fat max burning has been huge as part of all of this. like we were talking off air before we

Josh (06:30.791)
That's going to be a big, big thing for me on race day. I will carb heavy for the race, but I've been lowering down the amount of carbon take, appropriately based on the workout needs and intensity. So that's been a huge help for me. And, yeah, I'm just staying healthy and enjoying it and having fun. And I think a lot of it's due to the amount of strength training I've been doing too.

A lot of focus on the posterior chain, which us triathletes need a lot of. so if you're not doing any posterior chain workout, need to get on that butt, that calf and, and, uh, hamstrings and keep them happy and keep them strong. And, then the core that the, amount of swimming I'm doing for me is, mean, I guess I did 3,700 yards. Um, so like my workouts now, like if it's under three K I'm like, Oh, this is an easy day. was like before it was like over two K.

Fed (07:00.163)
Mm.

Jenna-Caer (07:02.7)
We're about to bite.

Fed (07:18.979)
Wow.

Josh (07:26.217)
and now it's under three K and it, it's, it's getting to be the point where I'm going and swimming and enjoying the workout and.

Fed (07:36.663)
Wow.

Josh (07:38.473)
It's just getting there and that's the thing. I, but I haven't missed one. I mean, since Puerto Rico, have not missed a swim and it's made a huge difference in swimming three days a week. usually get the weekends off and the weekends focus around the run strength and a really long bike ride. My long rides are up to like three and a half, four hours now. Um, and with a little bit of a runoff of, so yeah, it's been great. I looked ahead to my schedule this week and I'm not.

so excited about some of the run workouts. I think I have a four by 1200 today with a mile mile hard after their little recovery. And then I have a, three by 20, uh, with even higher Watts than my three by 18 last week. So on the bike side, it's going to be a big week and a big test week, uh, to see where I'm at going in Oceanside and kind of come up with a race plan.

Jenna-Caer (08:31.34)
Sounds like you're getting after it and definitely putting in the work for sure.

Josh (08:35.705)
It's, it's, it's interesting for sure. I'm not, I'm not acting like a, middle of the pack age group right now, but now we've got to back it up though.

Fed (08:44.802)
Yeah, you're right.

Jenna-Caer (08:45.9)
Well, it's great to see.

Josh (08:48.497)
How about you Jenna? You had a big weekend.

Fed (08:51.436)
I swimming with the swimmer of the group.

Josh (08:53.405)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (08:53.836)
Yeah, I can't say that I haven't skipped any swims. No, getting getting back to the swim volume, the frequency hasn't been as much as it probably should be. But doing some big slams, getting that four to four and a half K long swims. And the good news is, well, the speed hasn't been coming back too quickly after the year off the endurance at least has. So the last couple four and a half K swims have felt fine. So

I'll make the distance. That's a good thing. Definitely. Yeah. Heading towards race week. think I'm like five weeks out at this point. And if you're watching us on YouTube, I have a whole lot less weight and volume and hair these days. Gonna be a lot more arrow and cooler compared to the six extra inches of hair I had on there before. definitely starting to dial things in and yeah, this week.

Josh (09:34.703)
Aero testing.

Jenna-Caer (09:49.13)
So really getting to the pointy end of the training in the last kind of big weeks before taper starts, my schedule has changed pretty significantly. So now I'm almost working on a six day training week where it's been two days easy, one day very hard, two days easy, one day very hard. So really trying to dial it in and get into the very, very specific work and making sure there's enough recovery around it. So that's brought volume down a little bit, but.

The hard days are hard. I'll say that. But no, just had a great kind of test weekend where Sunday did a five hour bike ride with three by one hour at 70.3 watts just to make it balance out a little bit better. And then an hour off the bike at 20 to 30 seconds faster than race pace to see how the body and stomach felt on there. and I had to do that on a rolling course, which always makes it more fun.

Josh (10:45.245)
Hmm

Jenna-Caer (10:47.82)
Um, but it was a really good chance to test out nutrition, see how the legs felt. And really with Ironman, it's such a zone two effort. Like if you're doing very well, high zone two, if you're a pro low zone three kind of thing. So I could just ride five hours at that zone two kind of effort, but, um, adding a little bit.

Josh (11:06.921)
She's Jenna. She's not going to take it easy on the bike. Got a few people to catch after that swim.

Fed (11:09.432)
Right.

Jenna-Caer (11:11.882)
Yeah. Kind of make up usually typically we'll see. Yeah, that's own three just adds a little bit more intensity, which kind of makes it feel a little bit more realistic on the run having a little bit more tired legs because yeah, it's just a little bit of a different feeling. But everything went good. Ended up averaging the last couple of race bricks around 90 ish parts an hour on the bike. And I've been using

Fed (11:17.24)
Hahaha

Fed (11:37.454)
Okay.

Jenna-Caer (11:39.404)
Yeah, Morton the last little while I thought it was all hype for the longest time, all the Morton stuff. But we had a mono training camp in Costa Rica last year where I actually like tried it out and running in crazy hot weather. Just taken a ton of nutrition without any issues. So it's not the cheapest thing in the world. So most of my training, I'm still using the Melted X-ray and tub that's like 20 bucks for a five pound tub of it. But for the race nutrition or the race.

practice days, that's when I'll break out the Morton and see basically how much I can take in and still feel good running after.

Josh (12:13.289)
Have you used the bike carb before or is that just it's so I used it. used it ahead of Chicago last year and then on race morning and for Chicago, I did use it. It, I believe it made a difference because I know I was pretty close to threshold for me that day. And I think it held held me back and helped the muscles for sure.

Jenna-Caer (12:15.829)
No, I haven't.

Fed (12:17.166)
I have.

Fed (12:33.966)
Especially if you double down on the bi-carve. If you do the Morton bi-carve, taking it, and then do the AMP Human bi-carve, and then you're all bi-carved, it helps. Especially, I do it before a triathlon because I want to get through the swim as quickly as possible without dying. And that's what I do.

Jenna-Caer (12:34.24)
Gotcha.

Jenna-Caer (12:39.692)
Thanks.

Josh (12:42.834)
in the app.

Jenna-Caer (12:43.745)
Yeah.

Josh (13:00.265)
Kicking.

Fed (13:02.324)
It helps with the burning sensation on my shoulders, especially when it's like a wetsuit swim. And know, Mexico, we're not swimming wetsuits all the time. So it helps with that and the nerves. But I wanted to ask Jenna, or I think you mentioned it. A lot of people, there's a big myth that most people think that Ironman training is long, slow, steady hours all the time. Could you please like, you know,

explain why doing intensity is important because I think there's a big misconception that element training should be slow and easy and it's anything but that.

Jenna-Caer (13:32.172)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (13:41.706)
Yeah, definitely. And especially if you're looking at the whole of the Ironman training, really ideally you'll have the time to go through a whole periodized plan. So the farther out from race day, the more intense it's going to be. That's when you're getting to that VO2 and then transitioning to more threshold. And the closer you get to race day, the more kind of race specific it gets with the actual training. But with especially age group athletes, most of us don't have the time to put in the volume required to keep getting enough training stress to keep adapting.

and keep improving to their training load. Sure, if you have 50 hours a week to train, then you can probably do it. with age group athletes, especially, we need to balance out some of that training stress with intensity to make sure that you're still getting an appropriate dose to keep adapting to that workload is one part of it.

But two, like anything, race pace, you want to go a little bit harder than that to really make sure the muscles, the tendons, everything is really resistant to that increased intensity. So that race day, that'll feel a lot easier at the same time. You'll be a lot more resilient to it instead of just kind of cruising its own two the entire time.

What you have to think about race day two is you're going into race day rested. So ideally you're going to be going a little bit faster than what you're doing with that kind of base aerobic foundation training when you're doing zone two very fatigued with 20 hour training weeks. That's a different feel and effort than race day when you're going into it fresh and tapered.

A couple factors play in there just to make sure that really the majority of the training as you get close to Ironman should be aerobic, but you need those touches into higher efforts just to make sure you're more robust getting the training stress you need and have a good feel for race days so that you're not going to be breaking down.

Josh (15:26.759)
And it's another way to, work on the muscle fatigue when you don't have the time to truly go and spend five hours on the bike and run an hour off of it. So yeah, it's a, it's a good point. I think the other reminder I give some of my athletes a lot, and even my wife who's training for the Boston marathon right now is to remember what you just said. You're, you're, you're supposed to be fatigued during your training at certain points. And, and that is to teach your body to get ready for a race effort.

Fed (15:27.148)
Absolutely.

Fed (15:34.723)
Hmm.

Fed (15:50.444)
Yeah.

Josh (15:56.157)
But also remind yourself, don't be so difficult on yourself when you have a harder run or even an easy run that doesn't feel so good. And it's not always going to feel great. and you're a 14 mile run, your 16 mile run might not be the best. And that's okay because on race day, you're going to be tapered and rested. Should be. And it's such a huge difference. So don't be, don't be hard on yourself on the days where you're not feeling your greatest because that's part of the training.

Jenna-Caer (16:16.746)
Yeah.

Fed (16:24.728)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (16:25.372)
That cumulative fatigue is really what Ironman training is all about. The workout you did two weeks ago is still affecting you on your big workout weekend. So taking that to account is huge and it makes those workouts kind of worth more at the end of the day. And so I oftentimes like race day watts or speeds feel almost way too hard in training at times, especially you're going to the Olympics 70.3. But again, that's because your legs are already tired from all the work you've done in the previous couple of weeks and race day feels

Fed (16:31.926)
Absolutely.

Fed (16:39.022)
100%.

Fed (16:45.847)
Yeah, exactly.

Fed (16:54.892)
Yeah, absolutely.

Jenna-Caer (16:55.096)
a little bit easier if you can do that thing right.

Josh (16:57.449)
That and that's why we have workouts like the three by twenties where you're holding those race day watts for 20 minutes and it feels like hell. then you get in a race day is like, wow. I only have to hold this for two and a half hours. Okay.

Fed (17:01.346)
Yes.

Jenna-Caer (17:03.968)
Yeah.

Fed (17:05.016)
Hell.

Jenna-Caer (17:08.78)
Yeah.

Fed (17:09.166)
Yeah, and then you think the power meter is broken and you're like this is easy I'm a bump it up 20 watts and then you're like, nope, that was exactly

Jenna-Caer (17:11.968)
Yeah.

Josh (17:13.102)
And then you can't run.

Jenna-Caer (17:17.196)
That's where it goes wrong. That is a very good point, Fede. People feel good and impressed on race day and like, yeah, can push harder. This feels easy. It's not going to feel easy on the track that I run.

Fed (17:24.77)
Yeah. Yeah. It's not calibrated. No, but yeah, I think it's important what you just guys mentioned, because, like, yeah, training is supposed to be hard. Like some people say that make training hard so that racing can be easy. And also remember that we're not like robots. So, a lot of times people or athletes get discouraged when like,

say they have a session of three by 20 like Josh session and they're supposed to hold, I don't know, 220 Watts. And for some reason they can't, uh, it's okay to, you know, take down a couple of Watts, 10, 15 Watts, just so that you can go through the session. And if your heart rates where it needs to be, and that's why, uh, there's so many metrics that you can use other than power and heart rate use lactate and everything is.

in place the intensity is right. It doesn't matter that you're 10, 15 watts less or above what you were prescribed to do because at the end of the day it's a cumulative fatigue that's going to make those gains, you know, all the adaptations possible. It's okay if one session you are like, okay, I need to bump it up or down a bit.

Jenna-Caer (18:50.944)
And then one other thing, if you are a female athlete too, we get a little extra fun thrown in with it with the hormonal changes through your cycle. So that's always a good thing to look in on and kind of track how you go through that cycle. Cause it's really the difference of one week, a workout can feel absolutely impossible right before your cycle starts. Your body temperature is up, your ability to use carbs is down and things can just feel terrible. And a lot of times we kind of think to ourselves, well, I'm not being tough enough or hard enough or strong enough to do this one really.

there's a hormonal ship storm going on in your body and it's just, it's not your head, it's physical reaction to the training you're doing. And then a week later after it starts, find your testosterone is higher, you can use carbs, body temp is lower, that workout might feel absolutely easy. So I always recommend female athletes kind of track their cycles so that they know when those times are coming so that they can adjust their training to accommodate that so that you're not just beating yourself into the ground on days where it's not optimal to go to those higher intensities.

Josh (19:22.729)
Yeah.

Josh (19:49.361)
Yeah, it's everything that we do. It's all about the trends and understanding your own personal trends. And like Faye said, like a heart rate one day, okay, great. That doesn't mean anything to me, but my heart rate over a five week period, I can understand what it's supposed to do at certain efforts. And like Jenna said, when, when it gets to tracking your, your monthly cycle, then that's going to impact how you train and prepare or hydrate or eat and for certain sessions that maybe you wouldn't normally do.

Jenna-Caer (19:52.908)
It's sad.

Josh (20:18.301)
on other weeks. So yeah, that, that's a huge impact as well. And, and I think it's, it's, if you are trying to improve as a age group triathlete, and that is something you just want to simply add to your, your resume, understanding your metrics.

Jenna-Caer (20:35.818)
absolutely. That's a good point. Trends. It's all about the trends. The day to day, you know, if you miss a workout because they're sick, life gets in the way, things happen. That's one workout in the months of consistency. And if you've been putting in those months of consistency, you'll be fine.

Josh (20:50.727)
Not an advertisement, but I love my whoop for those reasons alone. And it does let me journal things and it does have a cycle in there for females as well too. So it's an easy tool.

Jenna-Caer (20:53.399)
Thank

Jenna-Caer (21:00.268)
Definitely. Man, right now my biggest thing, just, starting to get paranoid because everyone in this city seems to be getting sick. I've got three athletes I coach locally and all of them have been out with like this terrible two-week bug and I'm just like, okay, just not gonna go anywhere see anyone but it's cool so.

Josh (21:08.777)
Mmm.

Fed (21:09.294)
Fed (21:15.362)
Yeah.

Josh (21:18.089)
Bye.

Fed (21:20.491)
Haha

Josh (21:20.809)
Actually, now that you mentioned that, that reminds me of something I did this weekend and I was actually nervous because I've been so healthy and I've been so kind of isolated and picky on where we go. I went to the Boston Run show, which was also an outdoor show. But there was a huge aspect of triathlon there as well. And gutsy Alice Alberts there, which was really cool. And a bunch of the different local triathlon performance.

Fed (21:41.699)
Hmm.

Josh (21:48.425)
There was thousands of people there and then you started, then you're like, Oh, let's go to the after party and hang out with some other people in the community that I know. And, then, wait, Oh, this is how it happens. Isn't it way too close hugging everyone, talking to everyone. Um, we're, we're a few days clear now and I'm still feeling okay. So I think we might've got lucky, but it is that type of stuff you have to worry about as you get closer to race day.

Jenna-Caer (21:59.852)
you

Fed (22:00.087)
Yeah

Fed (22:04.162)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (22:07.862)
Let's get it.

Fed (22:13.11)
Yeah, and it's always this time of the year where it's about to be a spring. It seems like this is where everybody gets sick like right before spring. So yeah, interesting.

Jenna-Caer (22:13.172)
Yeah

Jenna-Caer (22:23.712)
I know.

Josh (22:23.849)
And we're a little more susceptible to it just because of the volume of training you're probably doing right now too, right? So the immune system is a little bit more taxed.

Fed (22:32.846)
100%.

Jenna-Caer (22:33.024)
I know I feel bad when my teammates asked if I wanted to share accommodations and stuff over in Taiwan. And I was just like, everyone traveling from different parts of the world on airplanes for long times, I'm just going to reduce the risk of catching stuff and just stay by myself in my own hotel room. Yeah, no. I love you, but I just want to stay away from people as much as possible going into race week. Yeah.

Fed (22:48.878)
Nothing against anyone just yeah

Josh (22:49.033)
ehhhh

Fed (22:57.774)
I love you but go away, yes. Awesome.

Jenna-Caer (23:03.388)
Well, let's dive in. We have a couple things to chat about, but first there was a race this weekend and typically we're covering more of the pro series races in the T100, but this was a first look at what's going on in the track on world. We had some interesting performances, so we're going to dive in. Fede, what happened this weekend?

Fed (23:21.678)
Yeah, we had Iron Man New Zealand, which fun fact other than Kona is that Iron Man has been on calendar for longer other than Kona. So it's a good. Yeah, exactly.

Jenna-Caer (23:34.836)
I was like, Canada died.

Josh (23:41.861)
and still has a mass start in the age group.

Fed (23:45.036)
Yeah, think it's, it's, it's the, it's the only one, which is awesome. Like if you want to, if you've never done a mass start, like if you got into triathlon post COVID and you're used to those rolling starts, and if you want to do a mass start, I would highly recommend going down to Ironman New Zealand because it's awesome that rush of a lot of people starting at the same time and fighting for position in a way. It's, it's amazing.

Josh (23:46.589)
which was really interesting to see.

Jenna-Caer (23:48.94)
I don't miss those days.

Jenna-Caer (24:12.843)
Thank

Fed (24:14.024)
that it turns out into a boxing match for the first couple hundred meters. Well, I like it, so.

Josh (24:18.769)
But then you can still be one of those people that's still trying to get from the beach to the start as people are already at the first buoy. So you can still roll yourself out there.

Fed (24:23.406)
Yes. Yeah, 100%. You can still roll yourself out there, that's for sure.

Josh (24:32.137)
You

Jenna-Caer (24:32.15)
The test isn't kicked in the face. Like, I'm just not a fan.

Fed (24:35.852)
Yeah, it's, I think it's a good way for me not being a great swimmer to take my mind off of the swim for a little bit and just, yeah, exactly. But anyways, yeah, I remember, I remember New Zealand in, in Topo. we had a big start list, especially on the men's side. had, you know, the likes of Joe Skipper, Tim Van Berkel, Mike Phillips, Jack Moody.

Josh (24:35.881)
Ha

Jenna-Caer (24:43.18)
There you go. Muscle group.

Fed (25:05.326)
yeah, you know, a lot of locals, been Hamilton and it was a very, very good race. it, know, Ironman New Zealand is always a tough, a tough course, not because of the elevation gain or anything, but because of the terrain, you know, the cheap seal on the, on the course makes you work for every single bit of, of, you know, distance.

it seems like you have to grind all day long, pedal hard on the downhills because it's not like a super fast surface. Like, you know, some roads that asphalt is pristine that you can just feel like you're zooming, here you need to work super hard because, and also the vibrations, you feel every single bump on the road. So if you're having a bad day, it could go really bad real quick on this, on this course. But,

Josh (26:01.885)
And you gotta do it twice.

Fed (26:03.438)
And you got to do it twice because it's exactly, it's two loops. And we had a really good race. was, it was a battle between Mike Phillips, Joe's keeper and Jack Moody from New Zealand. Mike Phillips took the win in 745. Then we had the junkyard dog Joe's keeper in 748 and then Jack Moody 749. And, uh, you know, it was a 240 tap day marathon for these guys, which.

I mean, this early in the season going 240 is impressive. And it was just good to see Joe Skipper healthy, back racing, happy, enjoying himself. Delo called Mike Phillips proved to be a better on the day, which, you know, kudos to him. He has been putting a lot of work. He's a, he's an excellent cyclist. Like he is. And he's, think he's about your frame, Josh. So he's a more muscular guy. it's, yeah, I mean, then again, then Jack Moody, it's like me, it's just like a.

of a person and but he's just an unbelievable runner and you know goes to show how all body types in triathlon can perform very well.

Josh (27:10.163)
Yeah. And Mike, Mike had a good swim, a good, I think he set the course record on the bike and then skipper came in and broke that a couple of minutes later because skipper was a couple of minutes down out of the swim. So he actually had a pretty decent swim. And I think his time in New Zealand with Fenella and training has really helped and skipper. even dropped a bottle or on the second turnaround.

Fed (27:17.144)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (27:20.724)
Yes.

Jenna-Caer (27:34.602)
Yes.

Josh (27:35.195)
lap too. he had us and he actually stopped and went back and grabbed that bottle because it was his nutrition. So that pushed him a little bit harder on the run, but he was, don't think Jack Moody had the run he was hoping for and, Skipper was having the day he was hoping for and was able to catch him on that final K. But Mike Phillips was in a different world on that day and he broke the Skipper's old course record by seven and a half, eight and a half minutes, something like that. I mean, it was, it was pretty impressive.

Fed (27:40.152)
Mmm.

Josh (28:03.657)
for those guys to throw those 740s and 745s that early in the season.

Fed (28:06.35)
Mm.

Yeah, like just for context, 70.3 worlds this past December, some of the top age groupers were riding like in the 210s, 215 bike splits and Joe Skipper's bike split was 410. Mike Phillips bike split was 412. And then Jack Moody rode a 413, which I mean, he is not known for being a great, like he's an excellent cyclist, but to be that

of that tiny bit of a Joe's and Mike Phillips's time speaks amazing about how he has been making credible leaps on his biking. And like I said, he's not a super stocky muscular guy. So he has been putting a lot of work into his aerodynamics and being smart on his training. So, and I think that took a toll on his running because he, out of the three, nine times out of 10, I'll put my money into Jack if it was like a running race, but

I think the powerhouse on the bike took a toll on his legs and that's why he couldn't run away from everyone.

Jenna-Caer (29:16.94)
Yeah, and it's impressive to see that 410 from Joe Skipper, like Josh mentioned, he dropped a bottle, stopped, turned around, got his bottle back on the bike. that's a fair bit of time losing that momentum and having to get rolling again in there. So it was great to see Joe have a good day. Like last year, he definitely underperformed, he'll say himself. So it's great to see him back and curious to see how it goes going into the pro series. Cause that's an extra Ironman that isn't in the pro series calendar. So he'll still have to do three

and iron man's on top of that to maximize his points.

Fed (29:49.71)
100 % absolutely yeah

Josh (29:51.933)
But we'll see him at Nice and 747 is nothing to squawk at when it doesn't matter who's in the field. mean, second place, 10th place, 747, 747. And it was good to see big boy up having a fun day because he was really in a bad mental space too, it seemed like towards the end of last year and didn't know what was going on. So good to see him back and happy and joking around like he normally does and beer-miling it up.

Fed (29:59.575)
Yeah.

Fed (30:18.092)
Yeah, yeah, it was fun. It was awesome to see.

Josh (30:20.265)
Ha

Jenna-Caer (30:21.44)
Well, what went down in the women's race here?

Fed (30:24.206)
On the women's race, had a, it's also like a good start list, but not as wide and as deep as the men's, but it was good competition nonetheless. We had Reagan Holiaki taking the win in 8.51. Then Justin McCauley, who has been struggling with a little bit of injuries throughout the years, second in 8.56 and Nina Duran in 8.57.

It was, I mean, it was a good race, but you know, Reagan took the bull by the horns and just ran away with the victory from everyone and she looked super strong. And she is, she races really well down under, so good on her. I keep an eye, keep an eye on her. She's probably gonna do good things in Kona and yeah, it's good to see how.

someone that's not super popular getting the win. So it was awesome. And also it was good to see Jocelyn McCauley healthy again, which we were mentioning before the podcast. Her running is probably not where it was back in the day, but it's good that she's back racing and she loves racing this Ironman New Zealand. So it was awesome for her.

Jenna-Caer (31:33.663)
Yeah.

Josh (31:49.403)
It's also nice to see the other drone actually not have to be the, be the Sherpa for her sister during a T 100 event and go out and she was at the front of that race. I think Jocelyn really crushed the bike too, which we know she's a, she's a great swim biker and is typically out front. So it was great to see, I think her question was fitness wise this early in the year, whether or not the run would hold up and it looked like it might not, but she was able to pull back from third into second and pass Nina Duran.

Fed (31:52.408)
Yeah.

Fed (31:56.257)
Yep.

Josh (32:19.433)
To grab that spot on the on the second step to she had a little trouble holding opening up her champagne though So she's gonna have to work on that that factor again But yeah, we get Regan's now done six Ironmans in the last 12 months, I believe and she's won three of them. So I don't know how much longer she's gonna Be an underdog when she steps up to a race. So certainly down under But we'll see what she does at Kona

Fed (32:26.7)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (32:26.7)
Thanks.

Jenna-Caer (32:30.262)
This is.

Fed (32:47.47)
Yeah, she's definitely not an underdog when it comes to racing down under. I think it's the Northern hemisphere guys that don't really put a lot of attention to the Southern hemisphere, which is a bit of a shame because there's really great athletes down there. And of course of the, you know, the summer being different and all of that, some of those athletes speak at different times. And when it comes to Kona, for example, for them, they have to train throughout their winter. So.

Jenna-Caer (32:47.712)
Mm.

Fed (33:15.86)
A lot of athletes have a hard time training through winter and then going to Kona and perform well. That's why we see the likes of Red and Kerry going to Australia for a heat camp and then going to the States. A long time before, to get those heat adaptations and those athletes that can't make the travel to adapt are the ones who take the bigger heat. But hopefully, she can do really good things in Kona this year.

Jenna-Caer (33:45.994)
Yeah, does anyone know what happened to Bella language? She was right up there from the front, but then ended up...

Josh (33:46.345)
She was just a, go ahead, Jen.

Josh (33:52.755)
She DNF'd on the run. And I don't know if that was part of the plan just because of her run volume or not. It hasn't been really much of an explanation that I've seen. She had a very good swim as she does out in front and she got past quicker on the bike than I expected. Cause typically she holds off with the front pack on the bike for a while.

Jenna-Caer (34:05.61)
Yeah.

Josh (34:18.931)
So I just don't think her fitness is there yet coming off all the injuries last year. she's been over there training for a long time, but I don't know if that training has been as smooth as, she had hoped either, especially with the run volume. So not sure what the plan was. She definitely, pulled out pretty quickly into the run. it seemed like, so, even though she was still in the top four or five when, when she, pulled off the course. So yeah, that's unfortunate.

Fed (34:44.238)
Mm.

Josh (34:45.969)
I still think she can have a pretty good season. think this was one of those like, see where we're at type moments. and hopefully that's all it was. So, she was out on the golf course, I believe right afterwards as a, caddy for her.

Fed (34:57.783)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (34:59.222)
She is a good golfer. I played top golf with her and she just like smashed everyone. It's crazy.

Fed (35:05.239)
Hahaha

Josh (35:06.355)
He's just a good athlete all around. And, and, and, Regan was a Regan's another one of those age groupers turned pro like within the last couple of years too. So, I mean, the trajectory is unbelievable. I think only only two or three years ago, she was winning age group races.

Jenna-Caer (35:24.172)
Well, let's dive into the topic that the whole triathlon world is a Twitter with these days. Unfortunately, we have seen another doping allegation come out here with Imogen Simmons has tested positive for a banned substance. And this one has definitely caused some interesting conversations due to the alleged method of fuck.

how she got it in her system, we'll say. She came out with a statement saying that she had tested positive and out of competition testing and her reason for, yeah, having it in her system was sexual relations with her partner. So as you can imagine, that has set off a whole bunch of memes and conversations within the Trap-Lon world and some of them have been pretty entertaining, but it's...

Good and bad to see a doping bus come out here. On the one hand, it sucks to see that potentially there is fire where there is smoke and she may be guilty of this doping violation and have taken banned substances. But on the other side, I'm kind of happy to see that we are seeing some of these come up because that means at least they are testing and hopefully that'll be a bigger deterrent for some pros who are maybe considering this as an option, hopefully not.

that we're actually getting some positive tests means that the testing is happening and that it is working, but it is just all around sad to see. And I know a lot of people really like Imogen Simmons and she has a very good reputation within the sport. So it's most harder to see it come up with athletes that are really personable and people like and know. What are your guys' thoughts on this?

Josh (37:13.201)
It's been done before the exact same thing that she's saying she did, or happened to her. It's happened, happened at the Olympic level. I think the two instances I saw there was a female, rower, kayaker, that had her partner husband intentionally to use the league of draw. and there was a curler ice curling, do it as well. So.

Jenna-Caer (37:18.06)
See, that's the first thing you Yeah.

Fed (37:29.742)
Mm.

Fed (37:40.29)
Yeah.

Josh (37:43.259)
It's been done before it's been admitted to that. That's why they were doing it apparently. so that's the, the, I don't know side of me. the other side is we all kind of have our belief in, in who Imogen Simmons is and the crowd that she runs with and the people that she hangs out with and trains with. And it's hard to understand, why she would do something like that intentionally. So there's definitely precedent, unfortunately, but it's also all of those athletes also got.

and

Jenna-Caer (38:13.996)
Yeah, so there have been four female athletes who have gotten away with having this drug in their system and saying that it was due to sexual relations, which really, for me, casts a lot more doubt because it's basically if you Google how to explain away this doping violation, it's the first thing that pops up. So that really, I don't know. Yeah.

Fed (38:20.802)
Yes.

Fed (38:32.856)
Yeah.

Josh (38:32.883)
in the book.

Fed (38:38.626)
Yeah, I would have to... I mean, I guess we'd have to... Well, I have to...

stay on her side until she's proven guilty. But that does not mean that I fully believe the story or yeah, it's it's it's complicated. It's a bit gray area. Like Josh said, it's been done before and it just raises more questions than than answers. So I don't know. I mean, it's the whole situation is a bit tricky. It's

definitely, yes, I think she's gonna get away with it in a way, just because it has people that have done that have been getting away with the thing, but I don't know. I think it's tricky. think it's definitely, definitely a great area when it comes to these whole doping situations.

Josh (39:46.569)
If she does get away with it, how do you think the rest of her competition and friends are going to react when she returns to, racing? think to me, that's the part that no matter what happens, it's not going to be the same. I, she's, she's not going to be hanging out. I don't think Mark Matthews is going to be hanging out with her, boyfriend much as much as was previously. And maybe I'm wrong, but I just think it was there.

Fed (40:01.336)
Yeah.

Josh (40:14.547)
There were trace amounts of it, no matter what. We all know that was a fact that it was definitely in her system. and, how it got there, why it got there is the part that we may never know. but it was there and it'll be hard for, would, as an athlete myself, I would have a hard time lining up next to somebody who, who had tested.

Fed (40:34.54)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (40:35.176)
Yeah, and there's a couple other interesting factors with this case too is one, so the allegation was that her boyfriend was taking a banned substance in their household and using this regularly. So first off that question's kind of, do you know your partner's doing that? Are you okay with your partner doing that? Which is not a good thing to start, but two, when you're associated as a close support person of an Ironman athlete,

you're actually, according to Ironman, you're under the same rules. Now, we can enforce them in the same way, but regularly they get emails to their support people saying basically you have to follow the rules as well because you are a close associate with this athlete, which includes not violating the water and doping regulations.

It's really sketchy that someone so close to her was using that. know if she didn't know, that would be a hard one to ever get from your partner to find out that they are taking that banned substance. Another thing was with the some of her support was that she took a hair strand testing to see if it was actually in her hair or not.

Fed (41:28.152)
Exactly.

Fed (41:35.362)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (41:45.344)
Her boyfriend tested positive for it in his hair, but she tested negative. Now the thing with that too is hair testing is not actually an approved way to find if this substance is in your system or not. So if it tests positive, yeah, it's obviously positive, but the testing for it had been done on race horses before and it hasn't actually been approved as a real method of detection. So that it's not in her hair doesn't say a whole lot either, unfortunately.

Josh (41:49.758)
Yeah.

Fed (41:54.798)
Hmm.

Josh (42:12.489)
And it doesn't stay in your system long period anyways. So like you're, you're not typically going to find an athlete get docked for this at race day competition. So it's gotta be out of competition. Speaking of testing, I don't know if they tested it in New Zealand from what I've been seeing or hearing either, which is kind of crazy at a pro Ironman race that there was no post race testing. Um, but that's a different subject. Uh,

Jenna-Caer (42:37.502)
is suggesting.

Fed (42:40.088)
Yeah.

Josh (42:41.267)
But yeah, it's definitely a substance that is in and out of your system pretty quickly from what I hear. And like the shelf life is not lost.

Fed (42:47.214)
Yeah, absolutely. then I mean, what, like now that everything is just speculation. Like if I want to make a case for myself and make it seem that I'm clean, I could tell my partner, Hey, let's, we're going to retest, please take the substance so that you go, that you test positive. And then I'm going to test negative because the thing is out of my system by now. And then.

There you go.

Jenna-Caer (43:18.124)
Yeah, no, it's crazy to see. And then the other part to this too that has caused a bit of scandal is typically when you have a situation like this where the athlete has had their A and B sample tested, tested positive for the banned substance, nothing is announced until they go through appeals and the whole arbitration process.

Fed (43:38.68)
Right.

Jenna-Caer (43:38.732)
And so at this point typically we wouldn't be hearing anything about this, but unfortunately another media personality within Trathlon basically went her and said I'm making a statement on this and putting it out there so you have the choice to either say something first or I'm gonna put it out there either way. So you can either have your story out there, but I'm saying this has happened regardless which

Fed (43:43.394)
Yeah. Yeah.

Fed (43:54.328)
Mm.

Jenna-Caer (44:04.948)
You know what, it sucks to see these positive doping allegations, at least gives them due process before something like this comes out and potentially ruins their career and reputation within the sport too.

Josh (44:18.697)
Breaking news is not always something that has to be broken.

Fed (44:21.535)
Exactly.

Jenna-Caer (44:22.752)
Yeah, definitely. you know, with a process like this, it's going to be a bit of time before we hear anything or if we hear anything, it might just be a case of she wins it and she's on a start list and we don't hear anything else. But sometimes this process can take months to go through. we probably won't hear anything for a while. I'm doubtful she'll be on the first T100 start list. I'm curious to see if she'll come to the location or not.

Fed (44:47.949)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (44:49.086)
At this point, we don't know too much more and we're just going to have to wait and see.

Fed (44:55.438)
100%. Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (44:57.452)
Well, let's jump into something a little bit more upbeat and fun. Hopefully, Josh, do you got for social media post the week?

Josh (45:05.345)
so again, I'm going to stick to the trend at this point of the season. Just keep watching all of the YouTube's and, follow your favorite pro athletes because the training, vlogs and stuff that are out there. Sam Long's been making a lot of news recently with his, if you're under 28 hours, you're not really training type mentality and, backing it up. And he's putting out some videos on tips and things like that for marathon running and stuff. so.

Sam's always wanted to check out that I enjoy. I've been doing a lot of long training rides. So I've gone through all of the YouTubes. We were talking off air before. I just caught up with some of Lucy Charles stuff and GTN and also was able to watch the first Sam Laidlaw YouTube in a long time. So if you have not seen Sam Laidlaw's update, we'll talk about it a little bit on the podcast, but certainly give it a watch yourself as well.

Yeah, I'd really just make sure you're subscribed to all the YouTube channels that you like right now and use them as part of your training regimen.

Jenna-Caer (46:10.966)
Yeah, definitely. Well, let's roll into some of the triathlon tea. You mentioned about Sam Laidlow and something that you brought up off the air before we started chatting was it sounds like he might have a season changing development. Let us know what was he saying in that YouTube video.

Josh (46:26.269)
Yeah. So he does not know, what's been going on officially since Kona. He had a hard time post Kona. Obviously he felt like he had the race. he hasn't even really talked about the race. So he did mention, how he felt about the race and what it went down. It wasn't a bunk by means. it was more of an electrolyte imbalance in his body. Just wasn't able to process it because he missed one hole.

water station and the stomach just got overloaded with electrolytes on the next flush down. And that caused him the trouble on the run that we all saw in Noel at this point, but he still thinks he was fit and ready to go for that effort. And there's days where his body just doesn't process the stuff. And that started rearing its ugly head a little bit. He obviously had to back out of the T100, even though he got there to go.

Because of a little bit of a calf issue. And now he's starting to realize some of these issues injury wise might've been because of what was going on with his kidney. So he's had some really hard time training. he's had a few good weeks and then, started getting tired pretty easily, way easier than you would expect Sam Lalo to get. And like 20, 30 minutes into a workout and have to stop. That started happening every few days and then it started, getting more frequent and.

He went to get tested and found out he had some kind of an infection that was kind of probably blocking the results. So once the infection cleared, which just happened within the last week or so, it sounds like he was able to then go and get the testing done that he needs to get done to figure out what's actually going on. So this isn't something that like he even has an answer for. I think he even mentioned like, I wish I just had a fracture or something. I knew like this is the timeframe. So right now.

Fed (48:13.272)
Mm.

Josh (48:17.651)
Sam Laila does not know when he's going to be able to show up and race again. And I mean, to the point where he was even talking about, I just want to be ready for Kona next year. He's like, if I have to miss Nice, that's okay. I've been there, done that one that, Kona is his baby at this point and his health is first and foremost. So hopefully he'll find the answers within the next week or so. He's getting some pretty serious testing done, stool samples, blood samples, everything.

Fed (48:26.123)
No.

Josh (48:45.733)
figure out what's going on with his kidneys or, or, or what may be causing these issues, with the electrolyte imbalance and fatigue. So hopefully he's, going to be able to, join us and not have to become a cook. Like he jokes about at the end, not high rocks cook. and yeah, I mean, cause he's great for the sport and it was his first YouTube. So we all kind of had a feeling something was going on. but he did talk about the fact that his goal is to still validate at

South Africa, and that might be all it is, is to get around and validate. But he's not sure if he'll even be able to show up for that yet.

Jenna-Caer (49:24.896)
Yeah, that's unfortunate to hear. We're definitely seeing this trend of how important health is. Like you see some of these crazy training weeks in and out. And if you're not healthy and dealing with some of these underlying issues, then man, you can't do anything crazy and travel on it. It just takes too much on your body.

We saw kind of the same thing you were mentioning with Lucy Charles video as well. She was dealing with injury and trying to figure out how to work with having celiac disease with some of the nutrition and training side of things and the effects that can have on your body too.

Josh (49:56.797)
Yeah, she, I mean, she, she talked to the episode with GTN that she did was a training day. did swim and a bike, no run, stuff, but swim bike and, Reese was there with, with Lucy as well. And it was a really cool episode. And, but she did, they, dove into how celiacs impacted her and, and, and what it's meant going forward and how she fuels herself to the point. mean, she.

Obviously this disease didn't just pop up it and she was training and racing with it. And it started to answer some questions now that she knows she has it, but she was carb loading with pasta and pizza and, then racing. So even if you're just gluten intolerant, you know how much that would impact you. So celiac disease is at a different level. So the fact that she was able to finish races after carb loading like that is impressive.

Jenna-Caer (50:35.404)
Yeah.

Josh (50:50.695)
But it's also scary for the females in the pro field now that she's got it figured out because that could impact her ability to stay healthy and injury free, which we know has always been an issue. And that's something if she can get around her nutrition better and keep the muscles healthy and recovered, then wow, a fully fueled and healthy Lucy Charles could be scary at the front of a race because we know that's where she's going to be.

Fed (50:55.971)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (51:13.164)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (51:20.798)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and that rolls us into unfortunately another video on health issues going forward. We also saw Lionel Sanders came out with another video talking about how he was basically pre-diabetic with some of the sugar numbers and the amount of carbohydrates that he was taking in with training was actually pretty shocking. Not only the amount of carbs he was taking in like even on easy rides, but also that he was getting up like seven, eight times a night to be which is not a good

of health period. you're doing that, like you gotta think something's wrong and then you're not getting quality sleep either. You're up every 45 minutes. That's definitely your body telling you that something is not right in there. One thing he did say though is he doesn't believe it's possible for a track late almost not to be pre-diabetic or kind of get those sugar levels which I don't think is the case. I think most athletes have a little bit more balanced nutrition we'll say. Kind at that top end especially.

sometimes shocking to hear the amount of sugar and things that he's eating throughout the day. You would just assume that's not great, as much as we all know.

Josh (52:30.633)
There's a lot of carb options out there that aren't as sugar heavy as what you would take in a gel per se. So, and there's ways to carb load without sugar. it is a huge factor, definitely on the harder efforts and race day, but if that's all you're using it for, you're probably not going to show pre-diabetic and get up in PA time strength.

Jenna-Caer (52:50.508)
Yeah, and a lot of that we had kind of the conversation beforehand and what's always been my philosophy is kind of train lower race high. So keep the 90, 100, 120 grams of carbs for race specific workouts, high intensity and race day. Outside of that, keep it a little bit more balanced.

Fed (53:04.75)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. probably exactly I was I was gonna say probably a lot of companies don't want to hear this, but once you train your gut to tolerate, you know, 90 to 110 grams per hour, you don't need to constantly do that like day in and day out. Maybe save those high carb intake.

Josh (53:10.001)
And save your wallet.

Fed (53:33.422)
days for like the super long high intensity days and for race day, course but like Jenna said and like Josh was mentioning you don't need to go all in on the carbs all the time because once it's not very bueno for your overall health and then again, it saves a lot of money because those gels are not the most cheap things in the world. So yeah, it's I mean should be common sense by now that hey anything

If you abuse anything, no matter what it is, it's probably not good for your system.

Jenna-Caer (54:05.77)
Yeah, definitely. And having that ability to be a lot more metabolically efficient is a very good thing. So at the end of the day, Ironman especially is a very aerobic fat burning endeavor. The carbs definitely help you go faster, speed up and stuff. especially when you're in that off season in that base training phase, it's better to train kind of on lower carbs, not low carb. There's a big change between low carb and lower carb.

Fed (54:30.783)
Lower, yeah.

Jenna-Caer (54:35.734)
But having lower carb in those long aerobics on one zone two training sessions will help teach your body to burn fat as a fuel source a little better. And then as you get closer to race day, like I said, using that nutrition for intensity or race specific workouts will help you just adapt to that. But.

having that ability, because you know, sometimes we see things happen. Like we saw a bloomin' felt puking on the bike. We've seen other athletes like bonking hard because they can't get those carbs in. If you have more of that metabolic efficiency, if you're not able to get in as much nutrition as you want, you're still able to kind of call on those fat stores to make it through race day. So just like I said earlier in the season, work on a little bit more of that metabolic efficiency. If you're doing an easy spin, you don't need 100 grams of carbs per hour. I promise you.

look at more healthy fuel sources and getting good fats and protein.

Fed (55:23.245)
Hehehe.

Yeah.

Josh (55:25.833)
And I'm not a nutritionist, but I do know enough about my own body to realize if I've got an hour and a half bike ride or two, two, two and a half hour, not very long type level, I can almost eat enough carbs prior to a bike workout. Right. You're not going to, if a run's different, right. You're going to have to feel a little differently and load for it a little differently and continue to, but if you're doing an easy spin.

The heart rate's going to be lower than your run anyways, for the most part. And you're sitting stationary on a bike and your stomach's going to be able to handle it better, which is why on a race day, you're going to take in as many carbs as possible during the bike portion because your stomach can handle it. So the same thing goes a pre-bike workout. I'll have more food, solid food before I actually get on to, and then that reduces the amount I need in gel forms, sugar form on the bike.

Jenna-Caer (56:21.834)
Yeah, and a good way to kind test that is if you've eaten beforehand, like eaten a meal beforehand, if you can't make it an hour and a half on an aerobic run or bike without bonking or needing gels, that's a good sign that you need to work a little bit more on that metabolic efficiency. You should be able to go at an easy, like an aerobic effort for an hour and a half without needing anything. Now, if you haven't tested it,

Josh (56:44.482)
it should be pulling the fat stores on top of everything else. It's not even burning as many carbs.

Jenna-Caer (56:49.488)
exactly. That's exactly it. So yeah, definitely some good discussions there and some good lessons learned. It's love Lionel. I love his videos and stuff, but sometimes watching them is the most frustrating thing in the world. It's like, how, how is this a discussion now?

Josh (57:07.681)
How does Morton react to that YouTube video? does it? The carb world in general. We'll see how that impacts everything.

Jenna-Caer (57:16.716)
Yeah, definitely. Well, we've had lots to talk about there. We actually put a call out for a few questions from the audience here. So we can get to a couple before we sign off for the week. One question we had from Marco Manchacha.

Comments and experiences training late at night starting past 8 p.m. versus super early in the morning at 5 a.m. or earlier. So what are your guys' thoughts on training late versus training early? I think I have some ideas on either side. But I'll share with you.

Josh (57:46.793)
Hey, kind of preaching to the choir on this one. I think the biggest note in my training peaks for my coach every day is why did you start so late? Why did you start so that we talked about this? I do know it, I allow the day to impact me more than I should and get up and train early. And I do notice a huge difference on the days I am training earlier. I also have a lot of things going on as I'm working towards a full time job right now. And.

Jenna-Caer (57:55.18)
you

Josh (58:16.489)
making sure I'm taking care of things that need to be taken care of because I have a little bit extra time not working full time right now. for me, that schedule tends to drift me towards, things come up. get an email. Like yesterday, I had a bunch of emails come in that I needed to respond to right away before I got on the bike. That all of a sudden took my hour and a half bike out of a window that I had to do it and pushed it to later in the day. So I had swim bike run all after 4.30 PM yesterday. And that was

four hours worth of work. So I finished really late last night. and not ideal by any means. My goal is to be done by eight or nine at the latest. and I tend to drift into later than that some nights and it, certainly impacts my quality of sleep, but I'm also able to make sure I still get enough sleep. So I am recovering. am.

able right now to train 20 hours a week and take a nap here and there if I need to. And I'm not falling into a sleep debt as much as somebody else who has to work at eight o'clock every morning and has to get up at six. So like I can adjust that. I got up early this morning, dropped my daughter off at the bus and went back to sleep for an hour and a half and then got up to do the podcast recording. So I'm able to adjust around it. If you can still get your sleep, I think

That's what really matters, whatever your schedule may be. I don't think the time of day is going to impact you if you can adjust on the other end. But if you can't, it's certainly going to screw up your circadian rhythm, your recovery, and everything else. That's my belief as somebody who definitely partakes on that later side.

Jenna-Caer (01:00:00.187)
Some great insight there. Fed, what do you think on the topic? You're on mute. Oh, you're on mute, Feday.

Fed (01:00:10.762)
Yeah, there we go. I said that I would have to agree with Josh and that just to add on that, just look at the demands of the race. Like if you're traveling to a different time zone or, you know, if there's a big time change between where you live and the race, it's probably a good idea to shift your training towards the hour of the race that you're going to be racing at.

just so that you could get your body used to racing at that specific time and doing exercise at that specific time. Other than that, I like to get things on early, not super early, but like, I like to be done by like noon or 11-ish and then carry on with the rest of my day for work and everything. But yeah, I'm more of a morning person just because of what Josh just mentioned and I don't wanna just, you know.

say it again but yeah it messes up your sleep if you train late then you wake up super hungry or like thirsty and yeah it's weird well for me it's weird to train super late but i don't know what do you think Jenna?

Jenna-Caer (01:01:23.658)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so actually when it comes to the question, is it better, is the best time to train either 5 a.m. or 8 p.m.? Really the answer is neither. Ideally, you would be training kind of late morning to early afternoon. That's the time when your body is, from a hormonal and body temperature standpoint, is most optimized to actually get that training and that work in. 5 a.m., you're probably depleted from, you know, not having eaten from dinner, a little bit dehydrated, and the muscles and tendons aren't warmed up.

you're very kind of cold and stiff going into it where 8 p.m. like Josh mentioned kind of thing that is gonna affect the quality of your sleep because basically your hormones are a little bit more out of whack after workout your cortisol is going to be higher so the sleep quality is going to be less ideal when it comes to that so midday is the optimal time to train but

most of us, again, that's one of the advantages that the pro athletes have over us age groupers, is most people don't have a schedule that can accommodate that to train at the optimal time of day.

Really, it's about doing what you can to, when you can get the training in, make sure that you get the best recovery around it. Like Josh mentioned, he trains later at night, but he also has a lifestyle right now where he can feel afterwards. He can take a nap during the day where he needs it. You can still absorb that training load. Or some people might have those early morning workouts. If you make sure you have a little bit more carbs at night than night before, you'll be a little bit better set up to have.

Jenna-Caer (01:02:55.5)
a training session at 5 a.m. Just make sure you give yourself a good warm up to go through it. So, age group triathletes, it's really about getting in the training where you can mitigate the parts of it that aren't ideal because, hey, this is our hobby. It's not our job. It's not the thing that supports us. So has to fit into your lifestyle more than anything.

Josh (01:02:57.459)
Yep.

Josh (01:03:15.571)
But you have to recover. And that's the biggest piece of this too. Like, so for me, I struggle with the balance on a late night workout with how much I eat afterwards. I absolutely get in carbs and protein right away. Love my momentous recovery shake and getting that done. And I know that's not really going to impact, but on a harder workout, like yesterday was pretty hard one. I needed to get a little bit more food into which then that's going to impact your sleep a little bit as your body digest that.

Fed (01:03:17.272)
Yeah.

Fed (01:03:43.715)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (01:03:45.161)
it.

Josh (01:03:45.213)
stuff while you're sleeping. So those are the things I try to avoid. if, if you are working out later, it definitely is easier to do those easier type workouts as well to the harder sessions, the harder it is to get a good night's sleep. But the recovery is the most important if we're going to keep going and doing this on back to back days. And I can't remember my last off day, but my body's been recovering because I've been feeling it correctly as well. and you can have down days, but you don't.

Jenna-Caer (01:04:11.723)
Yeah.

Josh (01:04:15.035)
always need an off day in an important build type situation.

Jenna-Caer (01:04:19.756)
Yeah, it's funny. just actually posted on my Instagram stories the other day and it might've been the start of this question, but I had my big race day specific workout kind of in there. It's, you know, six and a half hours of solid work where afterwards it's absolutely smashed. And I started later afternoon, so I was in 10 until like six 30 at night kind of thing. And even that you can see my sleep on like Garmin. It just shows the entire night. My stress levels are like up here. Like I'm sleeping technically. I slept eight and a half hours. I woke up.

Fed (01:04:32.334)
Hmm.

Fed (01:04:45.539)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (01:04:49.91)
terrible because just the quality of sleep was not there when you stress in the red all night while you're sleeping your body's not recovering because that increasing cortisol in your body is just trying to recover.

Fed (01:04:51.01)
Yeah.

Josh (01:04:56.402)
Yeah

Fed (01:04:57.678)
Hmm.

Josh (01:05:00.861)
Yeah. And you can, you can walk after a workout and like see your heart rate immediately drop, but then it doesn't get to where it should be. then like, I, your, your, your post reminded me like, I'll look at my whoop and it's like, my heart rate will be doing the same decline all night instead of going down and sitting where it normally does. And it takes almost all night for it to get to where your resting heart rate normally is.

Fed (01:05:00.887)
yeah.

Fed (01:05:07.628)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (01:05:07.883)
Yes.

Fed (01:05:17.857)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (01:05:23.756)
So yeah, at end of the day, focus on recovery, get it in where you have to. Ideally, you get in the middle of the day, but most of us can't do that. make sure you take those steps to help you recover in between at whatever time of day you have to do the training.

Josh (01:05:38.025)
Let's do one more question just because I think we missed it the last time that I still had queued up to and I think it would be a good one for us to discuss and then we can call it a day because it's been a long one. But do you guys think if Roth creates a qualifying method, would it become as popular as Kona?

Jenna-Caer (01:05:46.154)
Yeah.

Fed (01:05:55.469)
Mmm.

Jenna-Caer (01:05:56.49)
You know what, I think that's the wrong question to ask because I think Roth is bigger than Kona. Like for the number of athletes that actually race it, Roth sells out in minutes. So I don't, Roth is only limited by the number of athletes they can have on the course.

Fed (01:06:06.499)
Yeah.

Josh (01:06:13.917)
So North American popular, guess is probably the question. Because there are definitely a lot of North Americans that go over there, but I still believe North Americans are trying to get to Kona.

Jenna-Caer (01:06:24.832)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you know, it's funny. It's people want to get to Kona. That's definitely the badge of honor qualifying for Kona in there. But yeah, if you compare the races right now, Roth is bigger. Only because Kona is very limited from the number. Both of them are just limited by the number of athletes that can go to it.

Josh (01:06:42.343)
Yeah. Do you think Roth would become even bigger if there was a qualifying aspect? you think they're just going to like the lottery is the way to continue to go for them because they have nothing to work.

Jenna-Caer (01:06:51.18)
Yeah, they can't get any bigger. So it's kind of keep doing what they're doing because it sells out every year. It sells out quickly every year. Unless you're one of the podcasts trying to get a free entry for us. You're not getting in unless you're there right like as soon as.

Fed (01:06:54.562)
Yeah.

Josh (01:07:03.333)
Meh.

Josh (01:07:08.731)
Only because we're jealous guys.

Fed (01:07:11.082)
Only because you're jealous,

you

Jenna-Caer (01:07:15.946)
Yeah, it's definitely not as popular as, like not as well known in the US as Kodof, man, worldwide it's one of the most popular for sure.

Fed (01:07:24.098)
Yeah. Yeah. I would have to agree. would have to say that just because it's not as popular does not mean that it's less quality of an event. would, I would have to argue like I haven't raised Roth yet, but, you know, raising the world champs and then looking at what happens at Roth, I think it has a magic and I'm a stick to it that you can't really replicate. And it doesn't matter if it's like qualifying race or lottery.

I, the way I look at it is that everybody knows about Kona and the world champs and all this, but then people who really love triathlon know about Roth. So everyone that races Roth is there because they've done at least three, four Ironmans before. And probably I would have to say that maybe 70 % of the people that have raised Roth have at least raised one Kona.

So, yeah, I don't know. It's different. It's like mixing apples to oranges. But yeah, it's tough question. But in terms of popularity, I think Kona will have the upper hand all the time. But that does not mean that Rati is as amazing.

Jenna-Caer (01:08:41.181)
When you're talking

Jenna-Caer (01:08:45.196)
Yeah, if you're talking finish line and crowd support and people cheering on the side of the road, Roth is much better. What do think, Josh? Yeah.

Fed (01:08:52.022)
Yeah, yeah, overall atmosphere, yeah.

Josh (01:08:52.051)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (01:08:58.838)
What do think, Josh?

Josh (01:09:00.489)
I mean, to me, the atmosphere itself is I haven't been to either. So that's another factor for me. So as a North American, let's get to Kona first. But at the end of the day, I could see myself doing Roth before do Kona because of the qualifying aspect. there's the allure for me to do a big ticket full distance. That's where I think a lot of people end up at Roth and why that is there because it doesn't have the qualifying factor.

yet you get the same atmosphere, if not better with Roth and you get to travel as well and, go somewhere really cool and literally a village that just lives off of triathlon. So it is a, to me, that, that scale is kind of there, but if I got to Kona because I qualified, that just adds a whole nother level because that's on top of it. You're, you're already putting up a trophy that you earned. and the metal is already there. So.

Fed (01:09:33.306)
Yeah.

Fed (01:09:50.305)
Right. Yeah, okay.

Jenna-Caer (01:09:50.536)
All right.

Josh (01:09:57.609)
It's a difficult question for sure. I'd be happy with either. And obviously the pros value Roth a lot too. mean, Magnus has been there three years in a row, but he's not going back this year. So you can see how important the pro series is to him because he's taking out that extra full distance this year. But then you look at the start list and it's stacked. now Roth, announcing that you're doing Roth has become a huge thing. It's race calendars and then are you doing Roth?

Fed (01:10:05.55)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (01:10:12.352)
Yeah.

Fed (01:10:21.719)
Yeah.

Fed (01:10:25.058)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (01:10:26.296)
I will say with the European racing I've done, the crowd support is always better. Like they just rally behind it in a whole different way compared to the North American racing.

Josh (01:10:27.005)
So, yeah.

Josh (01:10:37.513)
out. And that's our, our goal is to help make North American triathlon a bigger sport. And hopefully people like buy super try and T 100 adding some more age group sessions and opportunities and bigger impacts around it that could could do it. So fingers crossed.

Jenna-Caer (01:10:41.534)
Yeah.

Jenna-Caer (01:10:55.614)
Absolutely love to see it. Well, I think that'll wrap us up for this week. We've been chatting for a while here We definitely have some fun stuff coming up as we're gonna see this pro series start to kick off with 70.3s and Ironmans We're gonna have a lot more racing to talk about we got the t100 starting in a few weeks as well Oceanside, Texas it is all kicking off So we always find stuff to chat about whether there are results or not But we'll definitely be diving more into the pro side of racing over the coming weeks But thanks again as always for joining me guys

Fed (01:11:25.742)
Thank you guys. You too.

Josh (01:11:25.853)
Thanks. Have a good one, guys.